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Egalitarian Christian Alliance » Theology » General Theology (Moderators: TL, Dawn Wilson, KR Wordgazer, Larry S, Don, Marg) » temple destruction in 70AD and Christ's second coming

Author Topic: temple destruction in 70AD and Christ's second coming  (Read 2647 times)

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Offline TL

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temple destruction in 70AD and Christ's second coming
« on: July 02, 2010, 07:20:58 AM »
I've a preterist friend who claims that Christ came again at the destruction of the Temple in 70AD.  Also, claims that revelations 11 shows this.  AND claims that Irenaeus talks about it.

Anyone know what Irenaeus said that might give this impression.

"Man is a being capable of subduing his emotions and impulses; he can rationalize his behavior. He arranges his wishes into a scale, he chooses; in short, he acts. What distinguishes man from beasts is precisely that he adjusts his behavior deliberately." Ludwig von Mises

Offline Don

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Re: temple destruction in 70AD and Christ's second coming
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2010, 10:43:59 AM »
I think Josephus says that the Shekinah left the temple before it was destroyed, so the Jews knew something was up.

I do not know about Iraneaus.
My translation of Eph 5:21-22 ... mutually submitting in the fear of Messiah; wives (mutually submitting) to your husbands as to the Lord.

Offline TL

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Re: temple destruction in 70AD and Christ's second coming
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2010, 03:57:13 PM »
Well, according to this guys thinking Josephus indicated that the Lord returned on that day?  Any Links to Josephus' writings.
"Man is a being capable of subduing his emotions and impulses; he can rationalize his behavior. He arranges his wishes into a scale, he chooses; in short, he acts. What distinguishes man from beasts is precisely that he adjusts his behavior deliberately." Ludwig von Mises


Offline Larhanya

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Re: temple destruction in 70AD and Christ's second coming
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2010, 09:23:38 AM »
Skimming the article on Irenaeus on Wikipedia (taken, as always, with the required generous helping of salt), I saw nothing that indicated that he was unorthodox on his perspectives regarding the second coming.  That said, I did only skim it, and Irenaeus is dense reading at the best of times.

He does go into some Revelations interpretation, and I expect that one can interpret the interpreter wrongly in this case, should one have an agenda to advance.
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Offline TL

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Re: temple destruction in 70AD and Christ's second coming
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2010, 11:07:09 AM »
thanks.  I've been reading Ireneaus myself and haven't found anything either. ???

What about Josephus.
"Man is a being capable of subduing his emotions and impulses; he can rationalize his behavior. He arranges his wishes into a scale, he chooses; in short, he acts. What distinguishes man from beasts is precisely that he adjusts his behavior deliberately." Ludwig von Mises

Offline Larhanya

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Re: temple destruction in 70AD and Christ's second coming
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2010, 10:35:17 AM »
Well, Josephus was a Jew, so I doubt that he believed Jesus returned that day :)

Quick Googling returned this:
Quote
The slaughter was continued while the fire raged. Soon no part was left but a small portion of the outer cloisters, where 6,000 people had taken refuge, led by a false prophet who had there promised that God would deliver His people in His Temple. The soldiers set the building on fire and all perished. Titus next spent eighteen days in preparations for the attack on the upper city, which was then speedily captured. And now the Romans were not disposed to display any mercy, night alone putting an end to the carnage. During the whole of this siege of Jerusalem, 1,100,000 were slain, and the prisoners numbered 97,000.
from http://www.bibleweb.com/content/josephus1templefall.htm

This was a great resource:http://www.josephus.org/causeofDestruct.htm#voice complete with an analysis by the website writer.  I thought this might be where your friend is getting this idea out of Josephus.
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Offline TL

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Re: temple destruction in 70AD and Christ's second coming
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2010, 01:33:36 PM »
thanks.  that was helpful.
"Man is a being capable of subduing his emotions and impulses; he can rationalize his behavior. He arranges his wishes into a scale, he chooses; in short, he acts. What distinguishes man from beasts is precisely that he adjusts his behavior deliberately." Ludwig von Mises

Offline TL

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Re: temple destruction in 70AD and Christ's second coming
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2010, 06:23:21 AM »
http://www.bibleweb.com/content/rev1-7everyeye.htm

This was also helpful, showing a set of Scriptures supporting both views.  but I'm sure there is even more support in the OT for Christ's second coming showing that there are more events that need to take place than the destruction of the Temple fulfilled in 70AD.
"Man is a being capable of subduing his emotions and impulses; he can rationalize his behavior. He arranges his wishes into a scale, he chooses; in short, he acts. What distinguishes man from beasts is precisely that he adjusts his behavior deliberately." Ludwig von Mises

Offline EricW

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Re: temple destruction in 70AD and Christ's second coming
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2010, 08:17:33 AM »
ταλαίπωρος ἐγὼ ἄνθρωπος: τίς με ῥύσεται ἐκ τοῦ σώματος τοῦ θανάτου τούτου; χάρις δὲ τῷ θεῷ διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν.

Offline Larhanya

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Re: temple destruction in 70AD and Christ's second coming
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2010, 09:15:34 AM »
I had never encountered this preterism thing until you mentioned it here, TL.  Just glancing through some of the stuff on the page that EricW linked, I'm a little :eek6:.  Like many...erm...other-than-orthodox views, it seems like it takes one part of Scripture and over-interprets, misinterprets, or too literally interprets it.

But I didn't read it for too long.  I am reading eschatological theology for my thesis right now and don't need to muddy the waters in my brain too much >_<
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Offline TL

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Re: temple destruction in 70AD and Christ's second coming
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2010, 10:40:27 AM »
Thanks ERic,  but what I need now is someone who has taken some detailed efforts to debunk preterism.
"Man is a being capable of subduing his emotions and impulses; he can rationalize his behavior. He arranges his wishes into a scale, he chooses; in short, he acts. What distinguishes man from beasts is precisely that he adjusts his behavior deliberately." Ludwig von Mises

Offline EricW

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Re: temple destruction in 70AD and Christ's second coming
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2010, 01:29:23 PM »
Thanks ERic,  but what I need now is someone who has taken some detailed efforts to debunk preterism.

Good luck. Reading THE PAROUSIA convinced R. C. Sproul that Preterism gets a lot of things right. He wrote a book about it called THE LAST DAYS ACCORDING TO JESUS.

Steve Gregg wrote a book called REVELATION: FOUR VIEWS A Parallel Commentary. I deduced from the intro that he was a Pre-Mil Pre-Trib Rapture Dispensationalist. The book lays out side-by-side the various interpretations of REVELATION. A couple years ago, I heard him on the Hank Hanegraaff show and Steve was now a partial Preterist, and so is Hanegraaff.

In fact, Hank had made Tim LaHaye angry because LaHaye's publisher published Hanegraaff's fiction novel which assumes a Preterist viewpoint that conflicts with the LEFT BEHIND series.

So in your efforts to debunk Preterism, you may find yourself becoming one.  :)
« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 01:31:09 PM by EricW »
ταλαίπωρος ἐγὼ ἄνθρωπος: τίς με ῥύσεται ἐκ τοῦ σώματος τοῦ θανάτου τούτου; χάρις δὲ τῷ θεῷ διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν.

Offline TL

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Re: temple destruction in 70AD and Christ's second coming
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2010, 05:40:46 PM »
R.C.Sproul thinks preterism is correct or just partially correct.??

"Man is a being capable of subduing his emotions and impulses; he can rationalize his behavior. He arranges his wishes into a scale, he chooses; in short, he acts. What distinguishes man from beasts is precisely that he adjusts his behavior deliberately." Ludwig von Mises

Offline EricW

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Re: temple destruction in 70AD and Christ's second coming
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2010, 03:03:55 AM »
R.C.Sproul thinks preterism is correct or just partially correct.??

I think Sproul (as most Preterists, I think) would describe himself as a Partial Preterist, but I could be wrong. I have not read Sproul's book except for a brief skimming many years ago. I think Partial Preterism believes that much or all of the Olivet Discourse refers to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., but also allows for some of the NT prophecies (parts of Revelation?) to have a future fulfillment. Google and Wikipedia can find you the differences between Partial Preterism and Full Preterism.

No eschatological framework covers all the bases, as Gregg's book shows, whether Premillennialism, Postmillennialism, or Amillennialism. Unfortunately, many Evangelical Protestants don't know of the alternative views; all they know is premil, pre-trib Rapture dispensationalism, thanks to influences like Darby, the Scofield Bible, Dallas Theological Seminary, the LEFT BEHIND series, etc.

Here is a humorous essay:
http://www.preteristarchive.com/PartialPreterism/The_Anti-Rapture_Page/famnight.htm
« Last Edit: July 16, 2010, 05:21:28 AM by EricW »
ταλαίπωρος ἐγὼ ἄνθρωπος: τίς με ῥύσεται ἐκ τοῦ σώματος τοῦ θανάτου τούτου; χάρις δὲ τῷ θεῷ διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν.

 


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