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Egalitarian Christian Alliance » Theology » Scripture Study (Moderators: Dawn Wilson, KR Wordgazer, Larry S, Don) » ezer kenegdo

Author Topic: ezer kenegdo  (Read 9042 times)

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Offline JLP

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ezer kenegdo
« on: August 11, 2009, 04:38:22 AM »
Can anyone help me with information on this phrase for NLQ?

It is being discussed at:

http://nolongerquivering.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=faq&action=display&thread=318   

at the very bottom of the thread.

Would anyone like to jump and help answer the question of what "helpmeet" actually means.

Thanks!   :)

Offline Don

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Re: ezer kenegdo
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2009, 05:17:38 AM »
Help meet is actually a fairly good translation of "ezer kenegdo" except that most of us do not speak Elizabethan English.

KJV Gen 2:18  And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

Notice it is 2 words, not one word.  When one word it can sound like helpmate, which is often understood as an inferior helper, a junior partner.

Help/ezer is a strong word in the Bible, it is used for someone who saves or protects another, the one that needs help.
Meet/kenegdo means "facing" or corresponding to, she will provide the help he needs and is neither superior nor inferior to him, she is equal yet different.

My translation of Eph 5:21-22 ... mutually submitting in the fear of Messiah; wives (mutually submitting) to your husbands as to the Lord.

Offline Dawn Wilson

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Re: ezer kenegdo
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2009, 08:12:55 AM »
The Hebrew word translated as helper suitable or help meet (KJV) is ezer neged.  

The definition of Ezer is "one who has something to offer the one who is in need of aid or is helpless."  Ezer is a powerful word God uses to refer to Himself.  The word Ezer used in the context of Eve's creation does not place Eve in a weaker or secondary position to Adam, just as it DOES NOT place God in a weaker or secondary position when used of His coming to our aid and our help.

The word ezer  is just one portion of the Hebrew phrase used to describe the woman God took out of the side of Adam. In the original Hebrew manuscripts the word ezer does not stand alone but is coupled with the preposition ke and the adjective neged.

The Hebrew preposition ke denotes the meaning of "according to what is in front of" or "corresponding to." The Hebrew adjective neged means “what is conspicuous" or "in front.”  

A literal translation of ezer kenegdo is "like his counterpart, corresponding to him” and should be translated as "a power equal to him."

The Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon translates the meaning of keneged as "equal and adequate to himself."

Eve as a ezer keneged was created as an "equal and adequate helper" to work alongside Adam in unity.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 08:29:30 AM by Dawn Wilson Ministries »
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Offline Don

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Re: ezer kenegdo
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2009, 08:56:20 AM »
e-sword says that in the KJV ezer is translated "help" and kenegdo is translated "meet for him".
My translation of Eph 5:21-22 ... mutually submitting in the fear of Messiah; wives (mutually submitting) to your husbands as to the Lord.

Offline TL

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Re: ezer kenegdo
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2009, 09:07:32 AM »
"meet for him" is good in an Elizabethan way of thinking.  But a bit difficult to grasp for the average Christian.  I think we should just stick to something akin to equal to him, having the same basic attributes, which is what 'corresponding to' or 'in front of/facing' means.  IOW, she is equally human.

I like your explanation Dawn.
"Man is a being capable of subduing his emotions and impulses; he can rationalize his behavior. He arranges his wishes into a scale, he chooses; in short, he acts. What distinguishes man from beasts is precisely that he adjusts his behavior deliberately." Ludwig von Mises

Offline JLP

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Re: ezer kenegdo
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2009, 09:15:52 AM »
This shows that the use of language changes, and why our Bibles need to be updated to reflect those changes.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2009, 11:30:52 AM by JLP »

Offline Dawn Wilson

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Re: ezer kenegdo
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2009, 05:57:30 PM »
Wow, Don, I just checked out my e-sword and found it to be exactly as you said - plus the NASB also had helper as ezer and suitable as neged ---  I was very excited and glad to see this  -- I wonder did this occur when they updated a few months ago.

I also checked my good old Strongs -- way old with cover falling off -- just to see if I missed this when I originally wrote this -- I found help meet and helper suitable to be defined as I wrote originally -- simply as ezer.

Makes me wonder if egal input is causing such changes to finally come forth !!!
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Offline Don

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Re: ezer kenegdo
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2009, 02:44:40 AM »
I just want us egals to be as accuirate as possible, to not give the non-egals an easy shot to discredit what we say.
My translation of Eph 5:21-22 ... mutually submitting in the fear of Messiah; wives (mutually submitting) to your husbands as to the Lord.

Offline TL

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Re: ezer kenegdo
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2009, 07:59:15 AM »
Thank you for that Don.  It is much appreciated.   :thumbsup:
"Man is a being capable of subduing his emotions and impulses; he can rationalize his behavior. He arranges his wishes into a scale, he chooses; in short, he acts. What distinguishes man from beasts is precisely that he adjusts his behavior deliberately." Ludwig von Mises

Offline Dawn Wilson

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Re: ezer kenegdo
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2009, 08:24:44 AM »
Does anyone know why e-sword left the preposition  'ke' off of neged when they gave the definitions of  'meet' and 'suitable' -- why they only wrote 'neged' and not keneged???  They did this for both the KJV and the NASB.  Why didn't they translate the preposition 'ke' or give it's definition??    

I updated my original post and documents to reflect ezer neged --- even though my 1985 edition of the Strong's definitely uses just the word 'ezer' to represent helper suitable and help meet.  

Accuracy depends on the resource you are using for your research.  My original post is accurate according to my 1985 edition of the Strong"s.  The truth is in this debate we will meet those who argue the accurate use is 'ezer' based on an old Strong's like mine and those who will argue 'ezer neged' is the accurate usage based on e-sword and other computer programs or sites.

 
Dawn

 
« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 10:37:50 AM by Dawn Wilson Ministries »
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Offline Don

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Re: ezer kenegdo
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2009, 08:40:13 AM »
neged is the root word, as far as I can figure out.
My translation of Eph 5:21-22 ... mutually submitting in the fear of Messiah; wives (mutually submitting) to your husbands as to the Lord.

Offline Dawn Wilson

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Re: ezer kenegdo
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2009, 10:35:45 AM »
One of the frustrating parts of this debate and striving for accuracy is our "changing" resources - sometimes changes are more accurate and at other times we loose valuable truth. 

A positive and more accurate change has been discussed here concerning e-swords use of "ezer neged" and my 1985 Strong's use of just 'ezer' for the words helper suitable and help meet.

Yet, I know of one valuable truth which is lost from the newer Strong's editions and on e-sword's Strong's reference material.   My 1985 edition of Strong"s shows the feminine association of the word translated as 'company' in Psalm 68:11.  It shows the feminine association of the Hebrew word 'tsaba'.   I've planned on replacing my worn out edition of Strong's but don't because all the newer editions have not reflected the feminine association of this word.  This information seems to have totally disappeared from the pages of the Strong's - I have yet to find a new edition which contains it.  Valuable truth has been lost from the pages of the Strong's.  The Strong's on e-sword also does NOT include this information. 

The Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Dictionary or the New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance also does not show the feminine association of this word on e-sword.  The Complete Word Study on e-sword completely ignores the feminine association and defines this word as 'a masculine noun'  >:(

If I depended only on e-sword edition of the Strongs as my resource for accuracy I would never know the word 'company' had a feminine association --- and could even argue its accurate use is as a male noun based on The Complete Word Study as my resource. 

Does e-sword's lack showing this feminine association make my 1985 Strong's definition obsolete or in error -- I think not.   Instead, I believe valuable truth has not been reflected in the reference material I've listed from e-sword. 

Can this information - women as the correct translation of company - be found on e-sword? 

From the commentaries on my e-sword.

Adam Clarke's Commentary says, " hammebasseroth tsaba rab; “Of the female preachers there was a great host.” Such is the literal translation of this passage;" 

Albert Barnes Commentary says, "More literally, “The women publishing it were a great host.” The word used is in the feminine gender, and refers to the Oriental custom whereby females celebrated victories in songs and dances."  Correctly translated --- and then he immediately writes in order to limit it's meaning and application. 

John Gill's expository on the Bible says, "And the word rendered "those that published" is in the feminine gender; not as suggesting that women would be preachers of the Gospel under the New Testament dispensation, for that is forbidden,"   :mad2:

Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible says, "great was the company of the preachers - prophets and prophetesses, for the word is feminine. 

E-sword's edition of the Strong's as a resource for total accuracy is called into question based upon the information found in these commentaries.   

The gender bias of The Complete Word Study is exposed by the information found in these commentaries.   

Let's not throw out or make obsolete our old worn out resource editions in our pursuit for accuracy and the use of modern technology - to do so would cause valuable truth to be lost.


 
Pastor Dawn Wilson
Mighty Warrior Church  Athens, Alabama

Author:  Women, Get in the Army of God

Dawn Wilson Ministries
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Offline Dawn Wilson

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Re: ezer kenegdo
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2009, 10:45:16 AM »
Don, I still don't understand.   :confused5:     Why would the fact that 'neged' is a root cause the preposition 'ke' to not be translated or even shown as being part of the phrase that makes up helper-suitable or help meet ? 
Pastor Dawn Wilson
Mighty Warrior Church  Athens, Alabama

Author:  Women, Get in the Army of God

Dawn Wilson Ministries
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Offline Don

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Re: ezer kenegdo
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2009, 11:18:58 AM »
The ISA interlinear shows it.

Sometimes simple connectives are not shown, I guess they are assumed to be known.
My translation of Eph 5:21-22 ... mutually submitting in the fear of Messiah; wives (mutually submitting) to your husbands as to the Lord.

Offline TL

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Re: ezer kenegdo
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2009, 11:21:24 AM »
Quote
Sometimes simple connectives are not shown, I guess they are assumed to be known.

I've seen that in some books also.  It can be confusing.
"Man is a being capable of subduing his emotions and impulses; he can rationalize his behavior. He arranges his wishes into a scale, he chooses; in short, he acts. What distinguishes man from beasts is precisely that he adjusts his behavior deliberately." Ludwig von Mises

 


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